Lancia 2000 problems

Many compliments and thanks for having recently revised the (ts) Throttle Switch description!
I am still in trouble with my Lancia 2000 HF...my son is ...furious with me!
I have incredibly found and bought a nos ts (Bosch 0 280 120 031) at the recent big Padova autoshow and known from the seller that at those times (circa 1971) Bosch made/offered a very smart wooden box kit with all necessary parts to install the D-Jetronic on Lancia Flavia 2000 coupé too!
I reported this news in a Lancia Forum asking for confirmation and details but got only a positive answer, confirming that it was available, maybe for dealers only.
I wish to add something that may be useful to be known by other people who probably had or will have (the time does not make discounts.....old things may become....too old/oxidized etc. to be repaired!) the same problem (engine speed drop when strongly accelerating, typically at 3000 rpm).
I have not yet inspected my original ts but have installed another (old but tested at Bosch here in my town, Ferrara, and found to be still good!) mps (taken from a Lancia 2000 sedan)....no improvement at all, only a higher idle speed when igniting.

My ..."action plan" is this:
- after speaking with some Lancia friends....I have booked the visit of an expert mechanic from Bassano
del Grappa...he has all the testing equipment to find what's wrong;
- in the meantime....very soon I will do some...simple trials (based on the little good sense that I still have....(69 yo!) ) :
1) with the engine running, I'll disconnect the 4 connections cable and see what happens when strongly
accelerating;
2) spray some electric contacts cleaner (as far as it is possible) inside the ts;
3) listen to 20 "clicks" at the injectors when turning the ts, with the key at start position (engine off)
As the carhas never been used very much and, moreover, I always treated her very softly, never fully accelerating, my impression is that there must be surely some ...oxidized parts....
If the wipers (fingers) do not make contact (touch) with enouth pressure....the pcb path may become/remain oxidized...I have the same situation in my 50's pinball machines: the wipers have a self-cleaning action, so assuring a good electrical contact...only if enough pressure is present!
If all fails...I have all other spare parts available...I hope not to be compelled to spend a fortune!
Sorry for having been maybe tedious, I hope this will be a useful help for somebody else too!
Waiting for your comments, have a wonderful Sunday.
Bruno

Bruno Zappaterra
Ferrara
Italy
email: br1vittorio@gmail.com

Hi Bruno,

I moved the topic as it has nothing to do with the compendium as such. Yes you can do all the things described. I would test the throttle switch with a multimeter measuring resistane. Measure pin 8 to 11 and pin 20 to 11 on the ECU connector. Then you should see ten times 0 Ohm and infinite in both contacts while somebody pushes down the accelrator slowly. And it must not show 0 when releasing the accelerator.

If all that fails, you have my checklist in chapter 14. I do not believe that a drop in rpm when pushing down accerator is caused by T.S. A failing T.S: should only limit acceleration.

sorry but when I click as you ask..I get confused!
it's a page written in german!
Please help me, I don't want to make wrong things but, believe me, the siter is a little bit....incomplete and complicated, at least to me!
Grazie
Bruno

RE: sudden speed drop when strongly accelerating on my Lancia 2000 HF
Ciao from Bruno, Ferrara, Italy. Today I made some tests on my Lancia 2000 HF coupé....and thought that perhaps there are some oxidized contacts in my original throttle switch...simply because they have been used very little as I always treated the car with respect, never driving too fast! (on the contrary my young son....did discover this problem as he wants that this old car...performs as when new!) Moreover the car is used very seldom! I made by hand some full movements (with engine on and off) of the throttle, just to see how it reacted and maybe I cleaned those contacts a little!
Better than before.
Then, to prepare the car for a next visit of a mechanic who should know well the D-Jetronic (to spare the time he will spend to check all!) by opening the ECU compartment.
As the last time I went to the Bosch service in my town they tried to solve my acceleration problem by turning the CO knob (without success)...I made it again and tested the car with strong accelerations in 2nd and 3rd gear: the results are not too bad as the car reached higher rpm's even up to 5-6000, either running or still.
The good result is not constant, some times I feel the engine dropping down but with some patient movement of the throttle pedal...the speed increases again as due.
Then I tried to spray some electric contact cleaner inside the switch but It's not so easy without taking off the black plastic cover.
While doing all these things I did notice that there is a very short rubber hose, connecting the cold start injector to the manifold, slightly kinked, the original was lost.
I kindly ask your help and expertise to tell me:
1) May the CO knob position...reduce or solve the problem or it has no influence at all?
2) may the kinked hose influence the performance at warmed engine or not?
3) as I also have nos Bosch trigger points...may I expect an important improvement by replacing the original old ones?
Sorry for disturbing you but I am simply trying to solve or reduce the problem without being compelled to ...rely on some mechanic....that will cost a lot and maybe will not solve the problem. You have an open credit with me, if you should need something from Italy...ask me and it will be a pleasure to please you. Of course I could also send you, if needed for your checks, at the end of all trials and when the problem will be 100% solved, all my original parts. Many thanks in advance. Bruno

Another question...please! (I beg your pardon but there was no more space in my previous post to you!)
A curiosity:
- how do work the 20 contacts of the throttle switch?
As far as I have seen in a pcb picture...in practice there are 10 positive contacts and 10...no contacts.....in simple words....what happens when quickly accelerating...with regard to the ECU and the final result for the injectors?
Frankly...I am an engineer but I have not yet found a clear and complete answer about the real importance and performance of the throttle switch!
Somewhere I did read that the action of the tw is very important, some others say it does not influence the whole very much...some others say that Porsche was compelled to have all those contacts for a powerful performance!
And my car, when new, almost reached 200 km/h.....
Many thanks in advance.
Bruno
PS:
1) soon I'll do another very simple test (but I am scared to do it.....correctly!), just for
curiosity: I will connect another ECU that I have......!
2) I have not yet been able to understand what is the difference between engine
speed and engine load.....could you explain it better?

Hi Bruno,

I repeat your 1st message to me here:

Ciao from Bruno, Ferrara, Italy. Today I made some tests on my Lancia 2000 HF coupé....and thought that perhaps there are some oxidized contacts in my original throttle switch...simply because they have been used very little as I always treated the car with respect, never driving too fast! (on the contrary my young son....did discover this problem as he wants that this old car...performs as when new!) Moreover the car is used very seldom! I made by hand some full movements (with engine on and off) of the throttle, just to see how it reacted and maybe I cleaned those contacts a little!
Better than before.
Then, to prepare the car for a next visit of a mechanic who should know well the D-Jetronic (to spare the time he will spend to check all!) by opening the ECU compartment.
As the last time I went to the Bosch service in my town they tried to solve my acceleration problem by turning the CO knob (without success)...I made it again and tested the car with strong accelerations in 2nd and 3rd gear: the results are not too bad as the car reached higher rpm's even up to 5-6000, either running or still.
The good result is not constant, some times I feel the engine dropping down but with some patient movement of the throttle pedal...the speed increases again as due.
Then I tried to spray some electric contact cleaner inside the switch but It's not so easy without taking off the black plastic cover.
While doing all these things I did notice that there is a very short rubber hose, connecting the cold start injector to the manifold, slightly kinked, the original was lost.
I kindly ask your help and expertise to tell me:
1) May the CO knob position...reduce or solve the problem or it has no influence at all?
2) may the kinked hose influence the performance at warmed engine or not?
3) as I also have nos Bosch trigger points...may I expect an important improvement by replacing the original old ones?
Sorry for disturbing you but I am simply trying to solve or reduce the problem without being compelled to ...rely on some mechanic....that will cost a lot and maybe will not solve the problem. You have an open credit with me, if you should need something from Italy...ask me and it will be a pleasure to please you. Of course I could also send you, if needed for your checks, at the end of all trials and when the problem will be 100% solved, all my original parts. Many thanks in advance. B

If you end up in German language menu, all you need to do is click on the UK flag in upper right corner.

Now my ansers, you are welcome to ask questions here!

1. Idle-run CO knob is only active when idle-run contact in throttle switch closes. That is normally only the case when accelerator pedal is not pushed down. However it can be adjusted as described in chapter "Maintenance".
2. I do not understand which hose to mainfold you talk of. Cold-start valve should only have a fuel hose and an electrical connector. Please post a foto of the kinked hose you mean.
3. Trigger points can be worn off. If they are just at the border of wear off it would mean that 3 cylinders suddenly stop to function. It is however unlikely that they would come back when you release the acclerator pedal. User nordfisch here has a very nice measuring gauge that would let you be sure or readjust your throttle switch. It's cheap and a short contact is enough.
4. My recommendation: DO NOT LET ANYONE open your ECU.
5. Did you do a complete sensor test according to my check list in chapter 14?
6. An error that starts suddenly and then stops again is very hard to diagnose. Often you can only find out what it is when the error occurs. Easier said than doen, I know. Especially if it only happens while driving.
7. You can exclude the throttle switch causing trouble by removing the electrical connector from it. It will limit acceleration capabilities a bit and idle-run might be a bit less stable. But you can drive without risks for engine failure. If your rpm drop does not happen again, then you knwo that it comes from throttle switch. If not, you have to search at another sensor.
8. Can you install a fuel pressure gauge with a long hose so that you can wathc fuel pressure while driving and especially when your rpm drop occurs. That would exclude problems form fuel supply.

Hi Bruno,

the 10 + 10 accerator contacts create 0 Volt signals on pin 9 and pin 20, but always in sequence on pin 9, then 20, then 9 ... and that is 10 times on both. ECU sees these and creates a broadening signal on injector drivers and influences pulse width modulator.

If these 10 + 10 signals do not come, acceleration of engine is limited. But it will accelerate and not drop rpm as drastically as you describe. that is why I said that such a drop is caused by a basically wrong mixture. However my test described above by removing throttle switch will let you eliminate it as reason.

So now you speak of a....basically wrong mixture......
If so....what is the...medicine?
Mille grazie

Hi Bruno,

let us do one step after the other with my checklist . Let us start with basics. Did you do all the tests in sectors

1. Engine
2. Components
3. Ignition (values from your workshop manual)
4. Fuel supply (2.0 to 2.1 Bar on running engine)
5. Power supply
6. Vacuum (including pulling -0.5 bar on MAP sensor and wwatching how fast it drops)

If you have done them, it is time to use a multimeter and measure all sensors. Remove ECU connector and measure directly on it with terminal numbers from Appendix B check section

Connector ECU, ignition OFF
Throttle switch

Then you remove terminal 15 from ignition coil (to protect overheating it) and switch ON ignition

Trigger contacts / points
Injectors: Crank engine without ignition

If all that is within specs and your problem still persists, do the last two tests

Remove throttle switch connector and verify whether that makes a change in rpm drop while accelerating
Connect a fuel pressure gauge with a long fuel hose to your fuel supply line over injectors and fix its display outside of your windshield window so that you can watch it while driving. Does fuel pressure drop when rpm drops suddenly?

If all that shows no fault, I can offer to verify your MAP sensor and ECU, but that should be the last resort.

I did write you a long and detailed...update but while ending it maybe I made some error and it disappeared!
I try to summarize for your help:
- replaced both the trigger points and throttle switch: they were still good, no improvement at all and now the car has shocks, noises as if a cylinder does not receive fuel or spark....!
The Bosch tecnician said that the air/fuel mixture is lean and that there is no variation at any position of the CO knob!
How can I adjust the mixture? (to have it less lean)
He said that it could be the mps (again! I replaced it!)
I think that it could be an injector or something wrong with the ECU...what do you think?
I would like to send you my original mps to inspect/check and possibly fix....how long will it take?
I fear that the replacementwork has been made by a simple worker and not an expert and that they did not even read the Lancia/Bosch manual I left to them to read....!
I will return and ask to possibly tell me the truth!
I am very disappointed...what can I do?
I think that you were right when you wrote: I said that such a drop is caused by a basically wrong mixture
I have already replaced the advance unit, the trigger points, the mps, the ts...what else should I do?
Many thanks in advance.
Bruno

Hi Bruno,

yes you seem to suffer a lot and it is hard to help from remote when neither you nor your workshop is familiar with D-Jetronic. It would be great if you could let us know which points of the checklist you have already checked. Otherwise I fear that we turn round in circles.

I can of course answer your questions but without a systematic diagnosis on your side, it will be very difficult.

1. The Bosch tecnician said that the air/fuel mixture is lean and that there is no variation at any position of the CO knob.
   If the Bosch technician had a glue of D-Jetronic, he would have checked where idle-run switch is properly adjusted and is close in idle. See chapter 12 Maintenance how to do that.!
2. How can I adjust the mixture? (to have it less lean)
   Well other than in idle-run cia knob you cannot change mixture. That is what D-Jetronic automatically adjusts for you.
3. He said that it could be the mps (again! I replaced it!)
   So you have a NEW MAP sensor? Or is it a used one? If you pull a vacuum of 0,5 Bar, how quickly does it drop to 0,45 Bar?
4. I think that it could be an injector or something wrong with the ECU...what do you think?
   That is impossible to say without a bit of diagnosis.
5. I would like to send you my original mps to inspect/check and possibly fix....how long will it take? If you have a NEW MAP sensor, that sounds a bit strange to me. Why would you want me to check your old one? And yes I could do that, typically takes a week. We had a similiar case with Michael and his Lancia here in last year. His workshop got his MAP sensor repaired by Bosch. But in the end he brought his ECU to me and I could measure it was broken. But his workshop was able to do all other diagnosis well so that the ECU was the only thing left to test in the end.
6. I fear that the replacementwork has been made by a simple worker and not an expert and that they did not even read the Lancia/Bosch manual I left to them to read....
   There is a very good Bosch workshop manual (Kundendienstanleitung) on partbob.de. Unfortunately that is only available in German. But let us be honest: A technician without an idea of D-Jetronic will not start to read the manual. A comment like idle-run CO knob does not work shows that they have no idea.!
7. I will return and ask to possibly tell me the truth!
8. I am very disappointed...what can I do?
   in Germany, Austria and Switzerland they have Bosch Classic Car Service Centers. I propose you ask Bosch Automotive Tradition whether they know an experienced Bosch Classic Car Service in Milano.

Hi Bruno,

on your request I have taken references for Lancia MAP sensor references again. But since days I get no reply from you. If you need help with your MAP sensor, please reply. Have you asked Bosch Automotive Tradition for a good workshop in Italy? I fear that your and your current workshop's experience will not be enough to solve the problem.

Ciao Volker,
I have replied a few minutes ago...again.
Maybe I made some errors while trying to reply earlier...sorry...I am 69.
Sorry, I was at the seaside in my house in Milano Marittima.
Let me know what to do and I will ship my original MPS to you....where it is now.... it is useless!
I hope that you will fix it!
Many thanks in advance.
If possible, for personal things please email to my personal email address (it will be easier for me!):

br1vittorio@gmail.com

Vielen danke und guten tag!

Bruno Zappaterra
Ferrara
Italien

Ciao Bruno,

now I understand what happened. When you ask the forum to be informed of all new replies to your thread, it will send you mail from info@<domain> . But this is not an email to reply to. If you do, it will end up in nowhere and get lost. You have to login and reply here inside forum.

I have sent you an email.