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W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl

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04 Feb 2015 11:01 #359
von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Petr,

okay, that means that idle-run switch is closed as poti works properly. An increasing CO value with increasing rpm is strange. Your injection pulse suring idle-run seems absolutely okay. Here my ideas of possible sources for problems:
  1. cold start valve open, that would mainly effect idle-run CO. Close fuel pipe to cold start valve to see whether there is an effect on CO
  2. Wrong fuel pressure or wrongly operating injectors (leaking, no spray)
  3. Wrong ignition timing
  4. Wrong temperature sensor vaules, especially water temperatur is very sesnsitive

Seeing your injector pulse width in idle-run, it is rather short than too long. So that should not be the cause.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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04 Feb 2015 19:23 - 04 Feb 2015 19:31 #364
von blueabyss
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Hi Volker,
Regarding your points:

1. Cold start valve checked, ok.
2. All injectors are brand new. Fuelpressure stable, exactly 2 bars, fuel pressure gauge connected all the time so I can see it during operation, also how long it will keep pressure after ignition switch off etc.
3. Timing ok, checked by stroboscope, ignition advance/retard checked - by disconnecting the vacuum lines.
4. all sensors meausred, values ok.

During the test run I connected first injector to oscilloscope. It is visible that ECU regulates the pulses - from 2,5 ms to 10,5 ms, during deceleration ECU cut off injectors. Injectors are energized again when I press the gas pedal. During 3 minute log interval I found out some additional pulses which I suspect it is not correct - see pic enclosed. These aditional pulses are completely random, but I cannot see them during idle speed log, only when I run the car on the road - under load. What could be wrong, any suggestion please?

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Letzte Änderung: 04 Feb 2015 19:31 von blueabyss.
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04 Feb 2015 20:08 #367
von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
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Hi Petr,

those addtitional peaks look really strange. But they do not look like normal pulses generated by ECU. That is why I do not believe in addtl. pulses on trigger contact side. But they would of course open injectors and thus inject addtl. fuel. As we only talk 3V peaks, there are 3 possible reasons:

1. Connection between cables or grounding problems
2. EMC. That could only happen when those cables are VERY close to ignition cables
3. ECU problems (highly unlikely)

Do you see these addtl. peaks on all 4 injector groups at the same time. And are you sure that it is not a measuring failure?

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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04 Feb 2015 20:24 #368
von blueabyss
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You're right Volker
Tomorrow make a measurement on one entire group of injectors with direct contact to the control unit.
Also, these faulty pulses do not understand.

While seeking a malfunction in electronics, but it seems that all the possibilities I am.

Check the timing even distribution and function of the valve tappets.
There must be a mistake !!!!!!!
I want her to find !!!

Thank you very much for your help
BR. Petr
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04 Feb 2015 23:36 #376
von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
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Hi,
what comes to my mind...
There was a guy with a ground shorting of the leads in the trigger-points unit because of broken isolation.
You could read out the triggering under driving conditions. Maybe there is such an intermitting shortment?
Regards
Norbert
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04 Feb 2015 23:51 - 04 Feb 2015 23:54 #377
von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
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Hi Norbert,

whille I normally fully agree with you, here I do not. A shortcut to ground in trigger contact cables would mean that the ECU sees an additional falling edge which would cause one more injector pulse with the same form. What I see here are totally different forms of pulses. That is why I do not believe in a shortcut on trigger contacts. That would however be possible on driver side towards injectors.

As I said I could also imagine that Petr has a problem with his measuring equipment. As we say in German: "Wer viel misst, misst Mist". Petr, I am sorry, that is impossible to translate.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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Letzte Änderung: 04 Feb 2015 23:54 von Volker.
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05 Feb 2015 00:07 #378
von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
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Hi Volker,
isn't it possible the peaks are so strange because of their timing running out of the limits of the ECU?
This is a high-speed-measurement...
I do not have the experience... just an idea.

Regards
Norbert
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05 Feb 2015 00:22 #379
von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Norbert,

well the signal from trigger contacts is analyzed by a flip flop and then differentiated before they are run through MAP sensor. The flip flop does not mind how the signal from tC looks like, it is an analogue circuit! Any falling edge will be enough to trigger the following function block.

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05 Feb 2015 00:22 #380
von blueabyss
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Good evening
Für uns heißt es: Maß zweimal - einmal schneiden,
Die tschechische Sprache ist, dass Reim - :woohoo:

Am pleased your interest - Perform a thorough new measurement :evil:

BR. Petr
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05 Feb 2015 10:31 #381
von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Petr,

when you do a drive test, try to do it at part load with 3000/min constantly while measuring. Then I would have a comparison value.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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07 Jul 2015 15:20 #1458
von petrD Mercedes-Benz W116 450 SE/L
petrD antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Volker,

After quite a long time I am sending the update on w116 - we were quite busy with other stuff.
When all measurements were done we decided to check the valve clearances and timing again. Valve covers dismantled – found extremely loosened/stretched timing chain. So everything needed to be replaced – all tooth wheels, guide rails, rollers. Once all was replaced, the valve clearances and camshaft timing were set up, following with CO measurement. CO dropped to 6-7%, but it’s still high while the adjustment knob on the ECU is at the minimum. When rotating with the knob the CO value goes up, so it means that the system reacts properly. But we observed one phenomenon: when accelerating – increasing revvs CO value constantly rises, which means there is still too much fuel.

Test drive confirmed that the petrol is not collecting in the oil as previously. The consumption is still high (see CO value) – around 17 ltr per 100km out of the city (extra-urban cycle). Another phenomenon – driving style doesn’t have the influence on consumption, it is same when driving fast on highway (meaning fast – 150 km/h) or driving slowly countryside 90km/h. City consumption (urban cycle) is still around 25 ltrs. Compare to the previous state the consumption dropped for 2-3 ltrs.

So far it was done:

- Replacement of all injectors for brand new ones (Bosch)
- Fuel pressure adjustment, measured during test drives – constant 2 Bars (pressure regulator and diaphragm damper replaced 3 years ago for brand new OEM, fuel pump changed for another D-jet in very good condition with low mileage)
- All temp sensors measured (resistance ass per tables) – all are ok (these were also replaced 3 years ago for brand new OEM)
- Vacuum hoses and proper connection check
- Throttle valve switch cleaned, adjusted
- MPS sensor replaced for remanufactured one (coming from American supplier Germanstar), part number matches ECU part number (checked with you previously)
- All air hoses on intake manifold check (new installed 3 years ago - orig.MB)
- Check and clean impulse trigger
- Ignition Timing adjustment
- Drive test with oscilloscope connected – impulse signal varies continuously with the load from 2 to 10 msec
- wiring harness check (remanufactured 3 years ago) – we found one mistake, 2 injectors were wrongly connected/swapped. It was also visible on graphs from oscilloscope.
- Supplementary air valve remanufactured by Volker
- Engine compression test done – values ok.
- Timing chain, wheels & rails renewal
- Valve clearance adjustment

After all these jobs we reached CO value drop from 12-14 to 6-7%, but the mixture is still too rich. There was one job done on ECU 3 years ago – reportedly some old resistors and capacitors were replaced. Based on the above and your observations and advices in your D-Jet guide we assume following – during the ECU repair components with different specifications were used thus ECU is not regulating as it should be.

Volker, as you really helped us with AAV, would it be possible to send you also the ECU and MPS sensor for check? Please let us know (or PM). Thanks a lot.

Regards,

Petr&Petr
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08 Jul 2015 06:54 #1467
von blueabyss
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Hello Volker, any contamination was traded oil and filter.
BR. Petr
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08 Jul 2015 17:03 #1471
von petrD Mercedes-Benz W116 450 SE/L
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Hi Volker, yes, the car is eating our brains..Petr tore already all his hair, being completely bald now...but we are not giving up this journey :) Oil, oil filter changed properly.

PM sent.

Rgds,Petr
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01 Feb 2016 21:20 #3020
von petrD Mercedes-Benz W116 450 SE/L
petrD antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Volker, my apologies not referring the succes...thnx so much again for tuning/setting the sensor. Everything installed back, emissions like almost new car :). I did not have a chance to test it for longer period, consumption dropped for sure, but once that white nasty substance is off the roads and winter over I will continue, need to check emissions again.
Rgds, Petr
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01 Feb 2016 21:26 #3021
von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Petr,

you are welcome and thanks for updating us!

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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01 Feb 2016 22:22 #3022
von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
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Hi Volker,
did you check the ECU, too?

Norbert
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01 Feb 2016 23:35 #3023
von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Norbert,

not sure whether I remember correctly that I verified the ECU. But could well be.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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14 Mär 2021 13:45 #15913
von petrD Mercedes-Benz W116 450 SE/L
petrD antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hello again,
Reopening this topic after several years of happy driving my 450SE with zero issues (thanks to Volker!).

Unfortunately new problem developed quite recently. One morning when I started the car I observed engine was running quite unstable, despite previous flawless operation. I drove the car for one km (dropping the kids to school), engine was apparently running rich. Stopped the car, started again but with extreme difficulty. I went back home (with quite problems), parked the car and since then I was not able  to start it again - flooded with petrol. I literally heard the fuel flowing to cylinders. Oil changed, new battery installed, problem still present.

So we moved the car to Petr’s repair shop. And here is the observation:
When the ignition Is switched on, all injectors are open immediately, not even when cranking the engine. Ignition key switch to on, Fuel pump is switched on and priming the circuit and petrol is just spraying out of all 8 injectors ( observed when we removed injectors with rails and left them sitting on engine). Unfortunately this happens randomly, not every time....some occasions the startup is as it should be. Trigger contacts checked, no sticking or other issues.

any thoughts or similar experience?

thanks a lot for any comments or ideas. We will continue with further checks next week. BR Petr
 

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14 Mär 2021 14:16 #15914
von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
nordfisch antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Petr,
I remember you well and think I bypassed your shop by car some years ago...

About the problem you have now:
Could you please read out the voltage at the injectors? It seems they are powered in bypassing the ECU... injecting all at the same time... 

Best Regards
Norbert

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14 Mär 2021 17:07 #15916
von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf W116032 450 SE USA Benzin in Öl
Hi Petr,
does fule pump run all the time after igntion is switched on without starting engine. Same for all 8 injectors?

If that is the case, either you have a wiring harness shortcut or unfortunately ECU has an issue. If it is all 8 injectors and fuel pump running I fear it looks like an ECU failure.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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